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Archive for August, 2008

August 22, 2008

Friday, August 22nd, 2008
Really Good Quotes  "A mind, once expanded by a new idea, never returns to its original dimensions." - Oliver Wendell Holmes
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Greetings, Quotaholics:


I saw the following headline, “Doctors can’t use bias to deny gays treatment” in the San Francisco Chronicle and my first thought was that some seriously ill or injured person had been refused treatment simply because they were gay. Of course the details were a little different but thought provoking anyway.

It turns out that Guadalupe Benitez, a lesbian, had gone to a San Diego County, California fertility clinic in an attempt to become pregnant through artificial insemination. The doctors at the clinic refused her the treatment based on their religious beliefs.

“Benitez, now 36, sued North Coast Women’s Care in Vista (San Diego County) and two of its doctors, saying they told her in 2000 that their Christian beliefs prohibited them from performing intrauterine insemination for a lesbian. The doctors later said they would have refused the treatment for any unmarried couple.”

The state Supreme Court ruled unanimously Monday that “California doctors who have religious objections to gays and lesbians must nevertheless treat them the same as any other patient or find a colleague in the office who will do so”.

“‘This court is allowing two lesbians to force these individuals to choose between being doctors in the state of California or being able to practice their faith,’ said attorney Brad Dacus of the conservative Pacific Justice Institute, which filed arguments backing the doctors.”

Basically the court said that a doctor can refuse to perform a procedure on everyone if they want, but they can’t selectively refuse the treatment. The other option would be for the doctor to refer the patient to another doctor in the same clinic who would perform the treatment.

I suppose it would be somewhat like being a salesman who doesn’t like to wait on women. As long as someone waits on her, no problem. The problem would arise when the woman was refused service altogether. It’s OK for an individual to be sexist, but a business can’t refuse service based on sex, race, religion, or sexual orientation.

The defense lawyer argued that doctors must “choose between being doctors” or “being able to practice their faith”. It would seem to me that the ruling only means that doctors will need to choose their coworkers more carefully. If there is a procedure they are uncomfortable with, for whatever reason, they need to make sure that there is another doctor who will take care of the patient.

I also question why doctors would even need to know the sexual orientation of the patient or whether they are married or not before fertility treatment. Isn’t it enough that a woman seeks treatment? Does the doctor need to know why she wants artificial insemination? Maybe she wants a baby but doesn’t want to have sex for one reason or another.

Do you feel that this court ruling is unfair to doctors? Do you think it forces doctors to choose between their career or their religion? While some religions have very strong feelings about homosexuality, do you think that helping a lesbian become pregnant would be some sort of sin? Couldn’t it be argued that if God let her become pregnant, through whatever means, it was God’s will?

Reproductively,



Isn’t it worth $1 a month to you to keep RGQ going?  Please click the link and direct your contribution to reallygoodquotes@yahoo.com.


Today's Quotes


"It is generally inadvisable to eject directly over the area you just bombed." - U.S. Air Force Manual


"Whoever said the pen is mightier than the sword obviously never encountered automatic weapons." - General Macarthur


"Don’t ever be the first, don’t ever be the last, and don’t ever volunteer to do anything." - U.S. Navy Swabbie

Today's Chuckle

The Funniest Staff Meeting Ever!
[Thanks to momma dewolf]

The boss of a Madison Avenue advertising agency called a spontaneous staff meeting in the middle of a particularly stressful week. (This is one pretty sharp boss!) When everyone gathered, the boss, who understood the benefits of having fun, told the burnt out staff the purpose of the meeting was to have a quick contest. The theme: Viagra advertising slogans.

The only rule was they had to use past ad slogans, originally written for other products that captured the essence of Viagra. Slight variations were acceptable.

About 7 minutes later, they turned in their suggestions and created a Top 10 List. With all the laughter and camaraderie, the rest of the week went very well for everyone! The top 10 were:

10 Viagra, Whaazzzz up!
9. Viagra, The quicker pecker picker upper.
8. Viagra, like a rock !
7. Viagra, When it absolutely, positively has to be there overnight.
6 Viagra, Be all that you can be.
5. Viagra, Reach out and touch someone.
4.. Viagra, Strong enough for a man, but made for a woman.
3. Viagra, Home of the whopper!
2. Viagra, We bring good things to Life!

And the unanimous number one slogan:
1. This is your peepee. This is your peepee on drugs.

Life Sentences

"He only employs his passion who can make no use of his reason." - Marcus Tullius Cicero, Ancient Roman lawyer, writer, scholar, orator, and statesman (106 BC-43 BC)


"Bravery is being the only one who knows you’re afraid." - David Hackworth

Image'n That
Ouch
[Thanks to Robert, an American original]
Imp-Revised News

E-Mail the Imp


I can remember bits and pieces of what life as like during WW II, on the home front. The austerity measures in the forms of rationing and recycling started out as hardships but didn’t end up that way. Mothers invented thousands of ways to make do with limited amounts of meat, butter, and no nylon stockings. The kids had contests to see who could round up the most aluminum, copper, and paper for recycling. I can remember saving pennies to trade for ten cent War Savings Stamps; to put in my folder to trade for a War Bond.

In our own private “Wars on Poverty” we find that we’re facing rising prices of everything due in large part to the rising cost of oil. Everything that is manufactured has costs related to the price of oil. It may be components made of plastics or nylon that start as oil. It may be metal or wood components that are manufactured using petroleum powered machines, electrical devices powered by electricity from oil fired power plants, and transportation of parts to a factory and the finished products to market.

Food prices also go up. Farmers use insecticides with oil bases, lot’s of electricity, and gas and diesel for farm equipment. Then there’s the cost of transporting the food to market, or to processors which use lot’s of electric to make cereal, canned food, and frozen food. They have to be shipped also.

To keep costs down, states are pushing “Eat Local” programs, encouraging people to eat products raised or processed in their state to save on shipping costs and boost local economies.

In England, a country of gardeners, they’re pushing for a return of one WW II austerity measure, the Victory Garden. As part of an overall “Green” push, the concept of the city farmer which started in 1978, is gaining momentum as a modern “Victory Garden” concept. In the US, the development of “Community Gardens” and backyard gardens is increasing without any organized effort to push the idea.

During WW I there were “Liberty Gardens”, during the Depression there were “Relief Gardens”, and then came the “Victory Gardens” of WW II. At the height of WW II, nearly half the produce consumed in the US came from Victory Gardens. Buying local produce and raising your own can save a lot of transportation costs and use of fuel.

Most folks I know that have veggie gardens don’t try to grow corn, pole beans, or other high maintenance crops or crops that take a lot of space to grow. But veggies for salads don’t take up a lot of space. A 4’ X 4’ raised bed area can give you a lot of tomatoes, peppers, scallions, radishes, Romaine lettuce, etc. If you have a fenced in yard, you can use that fence to grow cucumbers, snow peas, yellow squash and zucchini, green beans, or any other vine veggie.

I have a lot of acquaintances who have had home “Whoopee Gardens” for years. They only raise one crop which is used in herbal remedies, religious ceremonies, and for flavoring brownies. I suppose raising your own Whacky Tobaccy cuts down on transport costs also. I wonder how much more oil could be saved if I planted poppies instead of marigolds?

The Bad Sied 

Most Embarrassing or Scary Moment


Speak Up!

Speak right up!

Patti's Parenthetical Past

On this day in history,
August 22, 1920: Ray Douglas Bradbury is born in Waukegan, Illinois. His father worked as a lineman, but both his grandfather and great-grandfather were newspaper publishers. Ray’s family moved around, but kept returning to Waukegan, a setting he used for some of his own writing. The young child spent many hours amidst the books at Carnegie Library there. The family moved to Los Angeles when Ray was 13. He graduated from high school there but chose to continue his education in libraries rather than college.

He began selling newspapers and started to publish a few science fiction stories in fanzines in 1938. He was invited to attend the Clifton’s Cafeteria Science Fiction Club where he met many famous sci-fi writers of the time. He tried publishing his own fanzine in 1939 but it lasted only four issues before folding. He finally sold a story to a pulp magazine in 1941 – for $15. He made his first book sale in 1947, five years after becoming a full-time writer. He published The Martian Chronicles in 1950 and Fahrenheit 451 in 1953.



"First of all, I don’t write science fiction. I’ve only done one science fiction book and that’s Fahrenheit 451, based on reality. Science fiction is a depiction of the real. Fantasy is a depiction of the unreal. So Martian Chronicles is not science fiction, it’s fantasy. It couldn’t happen, you see? That’s the reason it’s going to be around a long time—because it’s a Greek myth, and myths have staying power."



"I don’t try to describe the future. I try to prevent it."




"The television, that insidious beast, that Medusa which freezes a billion people to stone every night, staring fixedly, that Siren which called and sang and promised so much and gave, after all, so little." – all from Ray Bradbury


Kids' Weird Words, The Date from Hell, How I Met My Mate
Kirsten's Krazy Kaleidoscope

Email Kirsten

“If animals were not meant to be eaten, why are they made of meat?”
~ Bumper sticker ~

I don’t really go in for the whole “Meat is Murder” debate. It’s too controversial, and there is too much potential for these arguments to result in people ripping each other’s limbs off. Yes, I understand the whole thing about being nice to animals. No, I don’t agree that people who eat meat are mass-murderers in the same category as Jack the Ripper or Charles Manson.

Meat may not be murder, but it can cause the death of the person eating it. A massive meat recall is underway in Canada, and Maple Leaf Foods has temporarily closed one of its processing plants. This follows a national outbreak of Listeriosis - caused by the Listeria bacterium - which has killed one person and made at least seventeen others very ill.

Listeriosis is one of the bugs that causes food poisoning. People who fall victim to it experience the usual array of gross symptoms - nausea and vomiting, diarrhea, cramping in all sorts of body parts, fever and chills. Death from Listeriosis is relatively rare, although people frequently wish they could die. When they do die, it’s usually from a symptom like dehydration rather than from the illness itself. Some people, however, are more vulnerable to Listeriosis than others. The illness is, for instance, extremely dangerous to pregnant women and their unborn children. The bug can travel straight to the baby via the umbilical cord, resulting in pregnancy complications, premature birth, even stillbirth.

The offending Listeria, when it arises, is typically found on tainted processed meat, eggs and dairy. Like many other bugs, it does not do too well in high temperatures, so a good thorough cooking will kill it. The trouble is, people don’t generally cook their cold cuts before putting it onto their sandwiches. Many people - myself included - have a fondness for runny eggs. This is usually quite safe, but could have inconvenient results if the egg is an unwilling host of Listeria.

I will be following the Maple Leaf Foods recall story with interest. My source article states that they supply meat to McBarf’s. Which makes me wonder about the famous McBarf’s Near Death Experience I suffered from a few weeks ago.

Kaleidoscopically yours,
Kirsten


Tim's Tales

More of the Best of Tim

Sometimes you come across an article that just makes you wonder. Granted, the only foreign country I have ever visited is Canada, and that’s more like just another state except for all the eh’ing and their fetish with some guy named Zed, but I can understand them well enough.

Bulgaria is a different story. I’ve never been there, so I can’t tell you what it’s like, but it seems they take drinking and driving just a bit less seriously than they do around here. If you’re caught with a blood alcohol content ("BAC") above 0.08% here, you’re legally drunk. In Bulgaria, you’re drunk if your BAC is above 0.5%. Unless you’re a cop.

It seems cops could refuse roadside breathalyzer tests, which measure your BAC. Personally, I wouldn’t want a cop on duty with even a 0.001% BAC, but that’s just me. You’re pretty drunk at 0.5%, I would think closer to comatose, and I have a problem with someone with a gun being even slightly impaired. Everyone knows not to mix tequila and firearms. It’s just not a good combination. Fortunately, they will soon firing cops if they refuse the breathalyzer test or if they are found driving while that intoxicated.

Back in my younger days, a few friends of mine happened to be in a bar with one of these breathalyzer tests that you could take for a quarter. We had had a fair number of drinks, but no one could blow anything over a 0.12. Eventually my competitiveness kicked in and a took a shot of 100 proof alcohol, then tried it immediately afterward. Even then I only managed to get slightly above 0.2%.

I can see the problems that might arise if a cop is drunk. Say you’ve had a couple and make the stupid decision to drive. Unfortunately, you’re driving skills are somewhat diminished and you’re swerving all over the road. Fortunately, the cop behind you is drunk too, so he’s swerving all over the road also and you look like your driving normally and the cop ends up pulling over somebody completely sober. Not good if you’re the sober person.

What happens if the cop is competitive? I mean, if you blow a 0.21 and he blows a 0.19, does he confiscate your alcohol and drink it until he gets a higher score? I can see all sorts of problems with that.

Then again, it could be there was a typo in the article and they meant the legal limit for driving was 0.05%. In that case, nevermind.

Tim a’Musing
Having a Ball with Yarns

Tip of the Day

Chefs pound meat not to tenderize the meat, but to help even the meat so it cooks evenly. - Peggy in Tonawanda, New York

Poet-Tree


Got some good ones today.

Next opening line…
I remember my first day of school…

Hints:  Here’s a great new rhyming/composition tool.  http://www.writerhymes.com/
There’s also a great rhyming dictionary at http://www.rhymezone.com/
Limerick rules.  http://freespace.virgin.net/merrick.sheldon/limerickrules.htm 

Submit Opening Line
Submit Limerick

In my wildest young days I once tried
To drive while being too fried.
I had been smoking some weed,
And, then, in my greed,
Decided to try to hang glide. - Bonnie in Louisiana
In my wildest young days I once tried
Swimming alone in a riptide
Though physically sound
I nearly did drown
So now I stay by a poolside. - E. Cole Aye
In my wildest young days I once tried
To inhale some nitrous oxide.
Though it was euphoric
I soon became sick
To hear that my brain it fried. - E. Cole Aye
In my wildest young days I once tried
To the bed by my wife be hogtied
So instead of passion
Words she didn’t ration
How she thought I was a mule’s backside. - E. Cole Aye
In my wildest young days I once tried
To eat ten onions that were deep fried.
At 4000 calories
They clogged my arteries
So now good tasting food I’m denied. - E. Cole Aye
In my wildest young days I once tried
To "borrow" a Porsche for a joy ride
I had fun driving fast
In fact it was a blast
Until with a police car I did collide. - E. Cole Aye
I thought that I’d go outside nude
So Big Band music I could etude
Let’s say that I didn’t care
That outside I was bare …
Let’s just say that I was “In The Mood.” - Anne Onimous
I thought that I’d go outside nude
For an audience I wooed.
When I doffed my brassiere
Instead of a cheer
By everybody I was booed. - Anne Onimous
I thought that I’d go outside nude
So through the forest I snowshoed
Things really went just fine
In that clime alpine
Until by the wolves I was pursued. - E. Cole Aye
I thought that I’d go outside nude
And there’s just one thing I can conclude
This time of the year
It is cold, I fear,
And my naughty bits have been blued. - E. Cole Aye
I thought that I’d go outside nude
But by my neighbor, I was eschewed
This she had to say
As she walked away:
You are one lewd crude rude nude dude. - E. Cole Aye
I thought that I’d go outside nude
But then my neighbor said something rude -
I looked like a ‘gator
And he’d see me later
As I was one wrinkled old dude. - E. Cole Aye
I thought that I’d go outside nude
And sat down just to brood
Along came Musée Rodin
And thought I was thinkin’
Now my statue can be reviewed. - E. Cole Aye (the statue “The Thinker”)
 

Reader Comments


Re: Fat Kids


I don’t know that I would report a parent with an obese child, unles I firsthand witnessed the parent doing something as blatant as saying, "Umm, kid, twinkies, EAT UP". But first I would like to think I’d do something a bit more neighborly, like (if I grew apples) giving them some fruit from a garden. - Cassandra in New York



First of all (whether in the UK, U.S. or anywhere), I think that all children who are seriously overweight should be examined by a medical professional, doing a battery of tests to make sure they are healthy (other than being over weight) and especially tested for hypothyroidism; underlying (and undiagnosed) medical problems maybe the culprit in a lot of these cases.

Let’s also look at the parents are they also overweight? Is there a history of obesity in the family tree? Educating the family members (all of them) in healthy choices when selecting foods is a must.

Bruce said, "There have been some reported cases where children under 10 have weighed up to 200 lbs (89kg) and a three-year-old has weighed 140 lbs (64kg) – putting them at a high risk of diabetes and heart disease. Only last week a 15-year-old girl in Wales was told by doctors that she could "drop dead at any moment" after tipping the scales at 462 lbs (210 kg)}…"

If the financial situation of the parents is such that they cannot afford to buy most healthy foods for their family what are they to do? Go on the "dole" for food stamps or other welfare assistance? What if they make too much money to qualify for those programs? Is the UK going to still take the children away?

Say that happens, Mom and Dad can’t buy the healthy foods the government requires them to feed their children and they don’t qualify for any government assistance programs to get the money needed for the food. If the children are removed from the home for 6 months (or longer), during which they are put on healthy diets and exercise programs and the weight comes off they are returned to their families — IF NOTHING HAS CHANGED IN THE HOME MOM AND DAD STILL CAN’T AFFORD to buy and prepare healthy foods. The children are still at risk, they will regain the weight and the process starts over again. Nothing is resolved; the "bandage" will have to be re-applied periodically until the children become adults.

In a lot of cases unhealthy food products that are cheaper to buy than healthy food products, is the main issue (in my humble opinion). Families who are on a limited income, who cannot afford to purchase much of the more expensive ‘healthier’ foods to feed their families, purchase the lower costing ‘unhealthy’ foods in order to fill their children’s bellies. No parent wants their child to go to bed hungry. If that means feeding their child macaroni and cheese 4 times a week or potatoes or ramen noodles (or whatever) that they can afford to buy lots of, then that is what they will do.

There is no good reason that any manufacturer has to continue producing unhealthy foods (what they say is - it’s the cost of retooling their production facilities, or that of reconfiguring the recipes the cost of adding more flavorful ingredients).

Reduction in the use of preservatives especially SALT (our foods don’t take WEEKS to get to the grocery stores anymore, nor do they stay on the shelves for months - either in the store or the home (most consumers grocery shop at least twice a month for goodness sake!) and there are plenty of healthy ways to enhance flavors in foods, a lot of which is seasoning with herbs and spices (OTHER THAN SALT) vacuum packaging (as in the case of tuna fish) is a vast improvement over canning to maintain texture and natural flavors and it doesn’t need refrigeration. The change from using unhealthy fats to healthier ones is just as easily done. (More expensive maybe to start with but hey they buy in BULK right?)

And I have noticed that quite a lot of the (labeled) "Healthy" food items contain more salt than the same food that is the ‘regular’ or unhealthy one! The majority of canned foods have way too much salt in them (has anyone ever really written down what the salt content of each can of food they eat in a day?) you don’t need to put salt on anything else you cook! You have exceeded your recommended daily intake just by what is in the cans.

The U.K. has fish & chips as a national (and historic) fast food both are deep fat fried and in the case of the fish BREADED. Even our fast foods here in the U.S. could be healthier by lowering the fat to protein ratio from 60% lean (usual amount as it is cheaper to buy per pound) to 80% or even 90% lean ground beef. And you can add other ingredients to the ground meat to keep it from becoming too dry (think meat loaf). Changing the flat top griddle to a grill top (that allows the fats to actually fall away from the meats) reduces the final fat content and (in my humble opinion) increases the flavor of the meat!

French fries can be made healthier by baking instead of frying (they already come flash fried (blanched) and frozen! I watch the program on food network "HEY! How did that get on my plate?" Do any fast food chains make their fries from scratch?? I think not.

Anyway, I will step down from the soap box I’ve lost my appetite for the topic. - Dora in Denver



Re: Kirsten and Who’s to Blame


I am older than Kirsten. I know this because my grandchildren are older than Kirsten’s kids. My mother called her cigarettes ‘cancer sticks’ and ‘coffin nails’ as she lit up. For over twenty years now we have been told ‘This is your brain, this is your brain on drugs.’ There have been messages on the side of cigarettes packages for decades, too. While in Ireland, we noted the message was ‘SMOKING KILLS’ which is rather unambiguous.


People have been following the ever-growing waistlines of first Americans and then other industrialized nations for quite some time. There are shelves and shelves of diet book titles along with businesses built with the sole purpose being to lose weight for members. The health risks have been known for quite some time although I will admit that popular press has tried to appease fat people by saying they are healthy as horses while weighing the same (a patent untruth).

We know what is bad for us. MADD has been around for close to thirty years. Looking in the phone directory of any major city gives lists of mental health professionals who list their specialties, with addictions spelled out.

I’m currently reading a book of essays each written by one of 60 ‘experts’ and brainiacs predicting what the world will be like in 50 years. One entire essay was written about health issues that would simply disappear if the print and television media would just inform The Public of the health dangers. This is supposed to be a smart person. This person hasn’t noticed the War on Drugs is lost and that new smokers don’t care about the warnings. Drunk driving has been a problem for over a century now with each accident splashed across local and sometimes national papers. Fast food restaurants have been arguing with the class action lawyers about their wares for years, so we can’t say we didn’t know there was some problem.

Telling us something is bad for us doesn’t really change anything. Teens take up bad habits because they are ‘bullet proof” in their own minds. We drink and drive because we have to get home somehow. We eat what tastes good and is easy to grab. I know every time I sit with a bowl of potato chips that I’m not making a ‘good choice’ and I also know that eating a quarter of a watermelon is pretty stupid, although advertised as fruit.

We do stupid things to ourselves. We know they are wrong, but we hope we can dodge the consequences. When we can’t, we feel even dumber. Placing the blame elsewhere is supposed to lessen the culpability but only ends up making us less adult and more of the whining children we wish we would outgrow. - Patti in South Carolina



Re: Tim’s Tales, Tales, Tales

Okay–I know Tim is off and it’s the end of summer and we’re all tired of the heat–yada, yada, yada–but I believe it’s the third time lately you’ve printed the story that you used in Wednesday’s RGQ. Are you guys asleep there? Also–has anyone heard from Gyppo lately? I seem to have dropped off his list so I’m hoping he’s okay still. - Ruth in Washington
[Oops! Looks like quality control is falling off!

I’m gonna fire the guy who did this!I’ve just gott figure out who’s responsible. Everybody tells me it’s Bruce’s fault. Any ideas on how I can find him?

No, I haven’t heard a peep from Gyppo. Where ya hiding, chum?]




Re: Poet-Tree


Annie and Cole are great!  Nevertheless, I’ve wondered for ages who they are. Any chance you can persuade them to do a piece to introduce themselves?

I’ve had this limerick about Cole just haunting me:


I’m not Annie I’m e-cole-I
And I may seem quite bashful and shy
My girlie rhymes I admit,
May seem an apt fit,
But in reality I’m really a guy!

So- now you know why I don’t submit limericks But anyway- those of you who ARE great at the task- I’d love to know more about you.

Oh—and Mike in Arkansas is so brilliant I hate his guts- but do get him back on the job too if you can! - Regards, John in Oz

[FYI…Mike is Mike in Arkansas. He just doesn’t have time to write limericks any more! Maybe your comments will be a poke in the gonads for him and he’ll write some more.

He wrote one of my favorites.

A lazy old hound dog named Blue
Was searching for something to chew,
He now has a headache,
A backache, a buttache,
No more will he chew on my shoe!]

[My pal from down under named John,
made a request that I must act upon,
I’ll tell a short tale,
of an aberrant male,
and a strange act with a trumpeter swan.

Now John’s not the name of this fellow,
our John is to kind and too mellow,
to ever partake,
of a swan on the lake,
it’s too cold and to wet and too shallow.

This fellow, let’s just call him Juan,
fell in love with his trumpeter swan,
and marital bliss
soon came to exist,
a trend that I hope won’t soon catch on.]




Re: Topless

Faithy Said: “NEWSFLASH if I am Topless in Public, I don’t care if you look. If I did I would not go topless. I look at topless men (some with a smile, some wih a groan) I DO however care if you Ogle me, Act like I am some kind of Slut, or think you can reach out and Fondle me.”


Yes. Of course …. You have the right not to be touched. That’s pretty clear cut. But being ogled and treated like a slut is very subjective. When does looking turn into Ogling? What actions make you think someone thinks you’re a slut? I am sure we can come up with a lot of very clear cut actions that we could all agree on. But there is alot of grey area here. - Jerry in St. Louis

[A comedian once said something to the effect that while eye contact was important, there’s a small line between eye contact and the cold stare of a raving lunatic!

I suspect that if I were watching topless women on the beach I would be perceived as "Ogling" simply because I’m old and fat. If I was younger and better looking the women would probably just feel they had attracted my attention. It’s like the old saying "Sexual harassment is when an ugly guy flirts with you".]



Reader Submission


This is a really neat item. Particularly since we’re paying thorough many orfices for high priced gas.

People are pushing the "E" for Empty and so will probably need a gas can more than ever. This is inexpensive and takes up very little room. That’s even a boon for pick-up owners who would usually just through their Jerry Can in the back. At least where I live, they seem to disappear from the bed whether they’re full or not.

http://autorepair.about.com/od/emergencyrepairs/fr/itzagascan.htm
http://www.itzagascan.com/ - sied



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